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rosiedoesTop Tory axed over Army race row
A Tory MP has been forced to quit his frontbench role after making comments on race in the Army which party leader David Cameron called "unacceptable".
Shadow homeland security spokesman Patrick Mercer said he had met "a lot" of "idle and useless" ethnic minority soldiers who used racism as a "cover".
The former officer also told the Times that being called a "black bastard" was a normal part of Army life.
But Mr Mercer later said he "deeply" regretted any "offence" he had caused.
'Way it is'
Some of the Newark MP's constituency colleagues have rallied to support him, with one saying Mr Cameron's reaction had been in "haste".
In his interview with the Times, Mr Mercer said of the black men he had known in the Army: "They prospered inside my regiment, but if you'd said to them 'Have you ever been called a nigger,' they would have said 'Yes.'
"But equally, a chap with red hair, for example, would also get a hard time - a far harder time than a black man, in fact."
When you wear that uniform, it is what goes on and it's been happening for a long, long time
Leroy Hutchinson
Former soldier
Send us your reaction
Mr Mercer added: "But that's the way it is in the Army. If someone is slow on the assault course, you'd get people shouting: 'Come on you fat bastard, come on you ginger bastard, come on you black bastard.'"
He also said: "I came across a lot of ethnic minority soldiers who were idle and useless, but who used racism as cover for their misdemeanours.
"I remember one guy from St Ann's (Nottingham) who was constantly absent and who had a lot of girlfriends.
"When he came back one day I asked him why, and he would say: 'I was racially abused.' And we'd say: 'No you weren't, you were off with your girlfriends again.'"
'Regret'
After the comments were published, Mr Mercer was asked by his party to resign his frontbench position and did so.
He later told BBC Radio 4's PM programme that in his 25-year military career he had twice come across soldiers claiming racism when disciplined for poor performance.
Mr Cameron said: "The comments made by Patrick Mercer are completely unacceptable and I regret that they were made.
"We should not tolerate racism in the Army or in any walk of life."
He also said: "I was completely shocked when I read the remarks of Patrick Mercer.
Mr Cameron called racism "disgusting", saying it had "no part in any part of our society".
Army culture
Shadow trade and industry secretary Alan Duncan told BBC One's Question Time: "He [Mr Mercer] appeared to be indifferent to the fact that someone was taunted for being black.
"You cannot be indifferent to that."
But Leroy Hutchinson, a black former corporal who served with Mr Mercer for 12 years, said: "He never tolerated racism in the battalion and not a single one of his men would consider him to be racist."
He added: "In the forces... name-calling - whether you be black, white, ginger, red, brown - it is part of the establishment."
He went on: "It's not meant and it doesn't come across from an individual as a racist comment. It's just part of the culture.
"When you wear that uniform, it is what goes on and it's been happening for a long, long time."
Newark Conservative Association chairwoman Sheelagh Hamilton said she was "extremely angry" Mr Mercer's comments had been taken "out of context".
"David Cameron has behaved precipitously," she said.
"[Mr Mercer] is a wonderful member of parliament and a wonderful man and he would never have intended to be racist," she added.
Richard Alexander, a cabinet member of the Tory-run Newark and Sherwood District Council, said: "We all say things in the heat of the moment that do not read too well in print, but I understand where he's coming from."
----
I never thought I would agree with a Tory, but I'm sorry: Mercer is right. That is how it is. He's not saying racism is okay. He's saying that people in the military - as in normal life - are picked out and addressed by what makes them different. It's just an identifying feature used as an adjective.
So what?
Yeah, it's offensive, but saying, "You black bastard" to someone, which is probably something they were fairly clear on before said drill sergeant kindly informed them - and, dare I say it? Something they may even be proud of - is less offensive to me than calling someone fat. Which they also do. But do you hear the thick-set soldiers bitching? I doubt it. Personally, I'm half-Sicilian and I call myself a Wop. You can call me a Wop. Or a butch bi bitch, if you want. I don't care. You're right, I am. And I'd compliment the alliteration, as well.
Because it's not an insult, really, is it? It's a fucking observation.
People need to accept that the military, first of, is fucking hard work. They want to break you down and build you up again from scratch, because they want to put you back together stronger and more efficient. If you're too pathetic to deal with someone calling you playground names then you're too weak to be a fucking soldier, so don't run around crying 'racism' because they won't stand for your pansy bitch, womanising bullshit. They also need to accept that the military has its own rules. Your happy little PC world does not fucking exist anymore. You just signed over the next three to five years of your life - they now own you wholesale and you will do what they say. I love that about the military: political correctness is taken for the bullshit it is. Speak your mind, and that way you always know where you stand and so does everyone else.
And Mercer's not saying that all black people are lazy any more than Little Britain is saying all disabled people are manipulative frauds. He's just saying that people use racial discrimination as an excuse for poor behaviour - just as certain people from other minorities, be they racial, religious, disability-related, or lifestyle-orientated are way too quick to scream prejudice over completely innocuous things.
I don't think making that point should have cost him his job. And I do think that people who abuse their position as minorities - and bear in mind that I am a Pagan bisexual with Native American heritage who is into 'alternative' music but grew up in Chav Central, and therefore I have some idea about being a minority - should be fucking called on it. Aren't we always asking for equality? Then why should minorities get special treatment?
A Tory MP has been forced to quit his frontbench role after making comments on race in the Army which party leader David Cameron called "unacceptable".
Shadow homeland security spokesman Patrick Mercer said he had met "a lot" of "idle and useless" ethnic minority soldiers who used racism as a "cover".
The former officer also told the Times that being called a "black bastard" was a normal part of Army life.
But Mr Mercer later said he "deeply" regretted any "offence" he had caused.
'Way it is'
Some of the Newark MP's constituency colleagues have rallied to support him, with one saying Mr Cameron's reaction had been in "haste".
In his interview with the Times, Mr Mercer said of the black men he had known in the Army: "They prospered inside my regiment, but if you'd said to them 'Have you ever been called a nigger,' they would have said 'Yes.'
"But equally, a chap with red hair, for example, would also get a hard time - a far harder time than a black man, in fact."
When you wear that uniform, it is what goes on and it's been happening for a long, long time
Leroy Hutchinson
Former soldier
Send us your reaction
Mr Mercer added: "But that's the way it is in the Army. If someone is slow on the assault course, you'd get people shouting: 'Come on you fat bastard, come on you ginger bastard, come on you black bastard.'"
He also said: "I came across a lot of ethnic minority soldiers who were idle and useless, but who used racism as cover for their misdemeanours.
"I remember one guy from St Ann's (Nottingham) who was constantly absent and who had a lot of girlfriends.
"When he came back one day I asked him why, and he would say: 'I was racially abused.' And we'd say: 'No you weren't, you were off with your girlfriends again.'"
'Regret'
After the comments were published, Mr Mercer was asked by his party to resign his frontbench position and did so.
He later told BBC Radio 4's PM programme that in his 25-year military career he had twice come across soldiers claiming racism when disciplined for poor performance.
Mr Cameron said: "The comments made by Patrick Mercer are completely unacceptable and I regret that they were made.
"We should not tolerate racism in the Army or in any walk of life."
He also said: "I was completely shocked when I read the remarks of Patrick Mercer.
Mr Cameron called racism "disgusting", saying it had "no part in any part of our society".
Army culture
Shadow trade and industry secretary Alan Duncan told BBC One's Question Time: "He [Mr Mercer] appeared to be indifferent to the fact that someone was taunted for being black.
"You cannot be indifferent to that."
But Leroy Hutchinson, a black former corporal who served with Mr Mercer for 12 years, said: "He never tolerated racism in the battalion and not a single one of his men would consider him to be racist."
He added: "In the forces... name-calling - whether you be black, white, ginger, red, brown - it is part of the establishment."
He went on: "It's not meant and it doesn't come across from an individual as a racist comment. It's just part of the culture.
"When you wear that uniform, it is what goes on and it's been happening for a long, long time."
Newark Conservative Association chairwoman Sheelagh Hamilton said she was "extremely angry" Mr Mercer's comments had been taken "out of context".
"David Cameron has behaved precipitously," she said.
"[Mr Mercer] is a wonderful member of parliament and a wonderful man and he would never have intended to be racist," she added.
Richard Alexander, a cabinet member of the Tory-run Newark and Sherwood District Council, said: "We all say things in the heat of the moment that do not read too well in print, but I understand where he's coming from."
----
I never thought I would agree with a Tory, but I'm sorry: Mercer is right. That is how it is. He's not saying racism is okay. He's saying that people in the military - as in normal life - are picked out and addressed by what makes them different. It's just an identifying feature used as an adjective.
So what?
Yeah, it's offensive, but saying, "You black bastard" to someone, which is probably something they were fairly clear on before said drill sergeant kindly informed them - and, dare I say it? Something they may even be proud of - is less offensive to me than calling someone fat. Which they also do. But do you hear the thick-set soldiers bitching? I doubt it. Personally, I'm half-Sicilian and I call myself a Wop. You can call me a Wop. Or a butch bi bitch, if you want. I don't care. You're right, I am. And I'd compliment the alliteration, as well.
Because it's not an insult, really, is it? It's a fucking observation.
People need to accept that the military, first of, is fucking hard work. They want to break you down and build you up again from scratch, because they want to put you back together stronger and more efficient. If you're too pathetic to deal with someone calling you playground names then you're too weak to be a fucking soldier, so don't run around crying 'racism' because they won't stand for your pansy bitch, womanising bullshit. They also need to accept that the military has its own rules. Your happy little PC world does not fucking exist anymore. You just signed over the next three to five years of your life - they now own you wholesale and you will do what they say. I love that about the military: political correctness is taken for the bullshit it is. Speak your mind, and that way you always know where you stand and so does everyone else.
And Mercer's not saying that all black people are lazy any more than Little Britain is saying all disabled people are manipulative frauds. He's just saying that people use racial discrimination as an excuse for poor behaviour - just as certain people from other minorities, be they racial, religious, disability-related, or lifestyle-orientated are way too quick to scream prejudice over completely innocuous things.
I don't think making that point should have cost him his job. And I do think that people who abuse their position as minorities - and bear in mind that I am a Pagan bisexual with Native American heritage who is into 'alternative' music but grew up in Chav Central, and therefore I have some idea about being a minority - should be fucking called on it. Aren't we always asking for equality? Then why should minorities get special treatment?
no subject
on 2007-03-09 01:12 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2007-03-10 01:24 am (UTC)Hope school's not being too much of a pain. Yay! for lay-ins. God, how I need one of those tomorrow. I'm going postcard shopping in the afternoon!
no subject
on 2007-03-09 10:17 pm (UTC)I'm glad you agree. I'm glad someone does, anyway.
I was in the Air Training Corps. I was going to join the RAF. Out Cadet Warrant Officers talked to us like that. Our adult Warrant Officers talked like that. To teenagers. If you're joining the Army, or the Navy, or the Air Force, you're going to have people trying to fucking kill you, man. Why worry about someone calling you kiddie names?!
no subject
on 2007-03-09 10:29 pm (UTC)Yeah, I mean - aren't soldiers supposed to be coarse? Why would they be sensitive to each other's feelings? Really?
It's fucking pathetic that people would react like that. We've made the world so hypersensitive and litigious that there's nothing left people can say to each other without fear of repercussions.
I hate that. I want people to say what they mean, y'know? Pretending to be nice to everybody all of the time is false and redundant. People need to be allowed to express their actual opinions, again.
no subject
on 2007-03-09 10:37 pm (UTC)*head desk* People are so stupid. And this very clearly is all about votes.
no subject
on 2007-03-09 10:41 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2007-03-09 10:44 pm (UTC)no subject
on 2007-03-10 02:07 pm (UTC)Its not "an observation" - its ignorant and degrading. Racist or bigoted name-calling is unacceptable under any circumstances. I dont know whats more appalling, the name calling or the fact that so many people are lemmings who simple roll over and say its acceptable because its part of the "establishment". You dont have to go down that road to build character - period! And anyone of colour who tolerates it is contributing to the problem. Its insulting, its degrading and it so deeply ingrained that it people who should know better arent thinking straight.
The statement and attitude are dead wrong for anyone in a leadership position. Cameron did the right thing - more of the "establishment" needs to follow suit.
no subject
on 2007-03-10 02:15 pm (UTC)I can see why people outside would, possibly, think it's about the racism, but it's not.
And please, don't insult my heritage. My father is Sicilian, my mother was born in England to a mother who is half Canadian, half Lakota. I don't get pious about my heritage, but I am proud of it.
You may be a very intelligent person, but you apparently know nothing about the military and military life and you do not have any clue what it is like to be in the military or the attitudes within it.
no subject
on 2007-03-13 11:27 am (UTC)